IS BHOP A TOP FIVE MIDDLEWEIGHT?

am i nuts for thinking the middleweight Leonard and Hearns probably beat BHop?

Birdofthad wrote:

am i nuts for thinking the middleweight Leonard and Hearns probably beat BHop?

Leonard maybe because of his athleticism but I could envision Hearns getting stopped late.

the hard thing to factor in is that someone may be ranked higher all time than at a particular weight class. people like walker who fought fighters in every division i think dont rate as high as a middleweight but higher in a straight p4p list. walker is on our immortal list but hopkins in no way would make that list. when we rank for middleweight though, i see what the fighter did AT middleweight.

my top 4 our (in no particular order) robinson, greb, hagler, and monzon. there could be a few people ahead of hopkins but i think that he for sure makes the top 10 if not top 5 barely.

Ali_1748 wrote:

Birdofthad wrote:

am i nuts for thinking the middleweight Leonard and Hearns probably beat BHop?

Leonard maybe because of his athleticism but I could envision Hearns getting stopped late.

i think that hearns easily beats hop because hopkins seems to have trouble with quicker tall guys that have a good jab. i think that there would be a few ugly rounds but i think that hearns pretty easily wins most of them

Birdofthad wrote:

am i nuts for thinking the middleweight Leonard and Hearns probably beat BHop?

I'm right with you. As far as B Hop stopping Hearns late, he's just not that type of fighter to take a chance like that. If he didn't jump on Taylor, I'd be surprised if he jumped on Tommy.

I definitely put it him in my top 5. It's another one of those things that can be made into a discussion so it depends on your preference.

soonermark890 wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:

Ali_1748 wrote:

I would say yes Bernard deserves to be ahead of Walker.

The problem with today's generation is they're usually ignorant to the past greats of that division, they haven't seen those fighters in action nor have they dissected their resumes . That's why you've got kids today claiming Pacquiao is the greatest ever.

I think that's where I come out too. That gets him to number five in my view. What got me doing this was comments longtime Philly promoter Russel Peltz made. He said basically that BHOP was a Bennie Briscoe or Georgie Benton or Boogaloo Watts level fighter. Now those guys were all excellent. But none ever won a title. Then I went and looked over the IBRO rankings. I have a great deal of respect for the thinking of the guys over there. They have BHOP at #13 behind guys like Zale and LaMotta and Cerdan and Fitzsimmons and Burley.

I just don't buy it. I think one can make an argument for BHOP beign out of the top five, but out of the top ten? Really? And has the division fallen so far that Boogaloo and BHOP are a pick'em fight? I just can't see it. But Pelz has been around Philly fighting for 40+ years.

Marble I am not trying to start anything but if he is ahead of Walker should he be on a certain list of ours?

NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What Walker did at welter and at light heavy and heavy crushes BHOP.

Birdofthad wrote:

am i nuts for thinking the middleweight Leonard and Hearns probably beat BHop?

No.

Gumby wrote:

I definitely put it him in my top 5. It's another one of those things that can be made into a discussion so it depends on your preference.

Like all these things it depends on what criteria one values. I have mine but I am not wedded to it, it is simply all I can measure.

If one tried the thought experiment of conducting a round-robin of say 25 great middles through history and then added up the records each would have against the other 24 men? I doubt BHOP is anywhere close to #5. But that's just too much guesswork for me.

Greb
Robinson
Monzon
Hagler
Hopkins

How you place them is up to you.

marbleheadmaui wrote:

soonermark890 wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:

Ali_1748 wrote:

I would say yes Bernard deserves to be ahead of Walker.

The problem with today's generation is they're usually ignorant to the past greats of that division, they haven't seen those fighters in action nor have they dissected their resumes . That's why you've got kids today claiming Pacquiao is the greatest ever.

I think that's where I come out too. That gets him to number five in my view. What got me doing this was comments longtime Philly promoter Russel Peltz made. He said basically that BHOP was a Bennie Briscoe or Georgie Benton or Boogaloo Watts level fighter. Now those guys were all excellent. But none ever won a title. Then I went and looked over the IBRO rankings. I have a great deal of respect for the thinking of the guys over there. They have BHOP at #13 behind guys like Zale and LaMotta and Cerdan and Fitzsimmons and Burley.

I just don't buy it. I think one can make an argument for BHOP beign out of the top five, but out of the top ten? Really? And has the division fallen so far that Boogaloo and BHOP are a pick'em fight? I just can't see it. But Pelz has been around Philly fighting for 40+ years.

Marble I am not trying to start anything but if he is ahead of Walker should he be on a certain list of ours?

NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What Walker did at welter and at light heavy and heavy crushes BHOP.

OK just making sure you guys were not trying to put him in the Immortal section.

marbleheadmaui wrote:

Gumby wrote:

I definitely put it him in my top 5. It's another one of those things that can be made into a discussion so it depends on your preference.

Like all these things it depends on what criteria one values. I have mine but I am not wedded to it, it is simply all I can measure.

If one tried the thought experiment of conducting a round-robin of say 25 great middles through history and then added up the records each would have against the other 24 men? I doubt BHOP is anywhere close to #5. But that's just too much guesswork for me.

thats my main problem with putting him at #5 is because he had a great reign at MW and he is a great fighter but when it comes down to it, i dont know if he could handle certain other great fighters.

powerpuncher wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:

Gumby wrote:

I definitely put it him in my top 5. It's another one of those things that can be made into a discussion so it depends on your preference.

Like all these things it depends on what criteria one values. I have mine but I am not wedded to it, it is simply all I can measure.

If one tried the thought experiment of conducting a round-robin of say 25 great middles through history and then added up the records each would have against the other 24 men? I doubt BHOP is anywhere close to #5. But that's just too much guesswork for me.

thats my main problem with putting him at #5 is because he had a great reign at MW and he is a great fighter but when it comes down to it, i dont know if he could handle certain other great fighters.

You and dmar clearly agree and I understand the argument. It's just that trying to handicap 500+ fights in my head would turn it to mush.

marbleheadmaui wrote:

powerpuncher wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:

Gumby wrote:

I definitely put it him in my top 5. It's another one of those things that can be made into a discussion so it depends on your preference.

Like all these things it depends on what criteria one values. I have mine but I am not wedded to it, it is simply all I can measure.

If one tried the thought experiment of conducting a round-robin of say 25 great middles through history and then added up the records each would have against the other 24 men? I doubt BHOP is anywhere close to #5. But that's just too much guesswork for me.

thats my main problem with putting him at #5 is because he had a great reign at MW and he is a great fighter but when it comes down to it, i dont know if he could handle certain other great fighters.

You and dmar clearly agree and I understand the argument. It's just that trying to handicap 500+ fights in my head would turn it to mush.

thats true. i do think that bhop is definitely in the top 10 though and probably somewhere 6-8.

and maybe your old head is already mush so thats why you cant picture 500 fantasy fights in your head at once. geez!

[quote="powerpuncher"]

marbleheadmaui wrote:

powerpuncher wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:

Gumby wrote:

I definitely put it him in my top 5. It's another one of those things that can be made into a discussion so it depends on your preference.

Like all these things it depends on what criteria one values. I have mine but I am not wedded to it, it is simply all I can measure.

If one tried the thought experiment of conducting a round-robin of say 25 great middles through history and then added up the records each would have against the other 24 men? I doubt BHOP is anywhere close to #5. But that's just too much guesswork for me.

thats my main problem with putting him at #5 is because he had a great reign at MW and he is a great fighter but when it comes down to it, i dont know if he could handle certain other great fighters.

You and dmar clearly agree and I understand the argument. It's just that trying to handicap 500+ fights in my head would turn it to mush.

thats true. i do think that bhop is definitely in the top 10 though and probably somewhere 6-8.

and maybe your old head is already mush so thats why you cant picture 500 fantasy fights in your head at once. geez![/quote]

Sure, pick on the old guy! I'll have you know I am mentally as sharp as I was yesterday...now what day was that again?