HELP ME WITH CERDAN

The two guys who are regularly put in boxing's middleweight Pantheon that I just don't understand the rationale for are Stanley Ketchel and Marcel Cerdan. I'd like to focus on the latter.

I grant that Cerdan died with a Duilio Loi-like record of 111-4 with 65 KO's. I grant that he showed incredible heart staying with Jake Lamotta for ten rounds with a separated shoulder. I grant that his KO win over Tony Zale is always impressive to watch and that in that fight it is clear not only is he a rugged customer but he is a highly skilled technician.

BUT

Of he 111 wins, 80 of them came during WWII when Cerdfan was fighting in Algeria and to a lesser degree Italy and France. I don't know, but isn't it likely that the best French men were otherwise occupied in those years? I mean doesn't someone actually have to do the surrendering?

When I examine Cerdan's pre-war wins, then men are either very nondescript or they seem to be guys like ranked welter Savio Turiello who went the distance twice with Cerdan whereas he was KO'd by a faded Henry Armstrong and Fritzie Zivic.

The war years are filled with no names. To his credit, Cerdan largely destroyed them. He also KO'd the vary capable Larry Cisneros twice. Cisneros had gone the distance with the formidable California Jackie Wilson and split with Sargeant Johnny Hutchinson. Decent wins, but that's about it.

After the war he beat ranked contender, HOFer Holman Williams. Now this is nothing to be sneezed at. But Williams had lost in the prior six months to Archie Moore by KO and Bert Lytell. Now those were both formidable guys, so no shame there. What is more telling is after Cerdan beat him, Holman went 4-5-1 in his next ten fights. Williams was clearly well past his best. He then beat #5 ranked Georgie Abrams. Then he splits two decisions with Cyril Delannoit, a fine fighter and ranked contender. But Randy Turpin would KO him less than a year later.

That's really it until the Zale fight. When they met The Man of Steel was 34 years old and just coming off his three round destruction of Rocky Graziano in their third fight. Zale was in his fifth fight of 1948 and except for the prior Graziano loss hadn't lost in five years when Billy Conn beat him. An extremely dangerous and formidable man.

Here is some footage of that fight. Cerdan is in white. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKfD77DfSoI

Now are Cerdan's accomplishments excellent? Yup. Impressive? Yup. But does it make him a top ten middleweight of all time? Lots of men whose opinions I respect say yes. But I don't get it. Any help?

Just for grins here is Cerdan doing his Jack Demspey imitation. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ok668rOv_4c&feature=related

Very impressive thread on Cerdan. Marble, I don't think they're doing the research you're doing when it comes to Cerdan. I know I'm not. When I think of the MW Division (Pre - Monzon and Hagler), certain names come to mind. Of course, Robinson was the king, but you also had Jake Lamotta, Tony Zale, Rocky Graziano, Carmen Basilio and Tony De Marco just to name a few. These are the immortals of that time according to those who didn't live it. Zale's heart, punching power, body punching and face (He was a rugged looking, muscle bound SOB) along with coming out on top in 3 wars with Graziano are ingrained in the minds of everyone who saw footage of his fights. Is it right that I'm excited about Cerdan based on one victory? No. If you have the info to justify taking him out of the top ten list of MWs (and it seems like you do) then I think you should do it. Dmar will have something to say and he knows a lot more about this time period than I do.

marble maybe i can help on both cerdan and ketchel..and yes im one that feels there both top ten middles.cerdan first was in the french army for 3 years.he did fight but army duties prevented him from traveling overseas which is understandable since france was heavy into WW2 at that time while the usa was not..after his army stint was over cerdan was thinking as soon as its over he would go to the usa and fight but the usa then got involved in ww2 and again cerdans travel restrictions were applied..he then got involved in the french underground resistence..when the war finaly ended cerdan did go to the usa and did fight and beat top world class middles..abrams yes was one but also you ommited the formitable harold green..he beat zale and was beating lamotta dispite fighting several rounds with one arm..the last 2 are well respected hofamers..cerdan in thoses fights against world class competion of zale lamotta green abrahms deminstrated severel skills that were accomplished..great body puncher excellent combo puncher tech very sound..strong and durable endurance toughness and ring inteligence..based on the evidence of fighting 2 respected hofamers and realy getting the best of them and beating green abrahms and yes a holman williams is enough proof to say if there wasnt a war he would of been here sooner..talent wise he was that good..
on ketchel he was argueably the hardest punching middle ever..a rocky graziano slugger style but he was one name i was going to submit in your short career thread..yes he had over 50 fights but fought only 7 years..killed at what 24..it took some 4 to 5 years to establish himself and learn the trade..at 22 years old he was ready...who did he fight..well he beat i think 3 times HOFamer and lightheavy champ philidelphia jack obrein..the beat hofamer middle champ billy papke 3 times..it would of been four if not for the sucker punch..he had ATG heavy champ jack johnson on the floor and contrary to the BS johnson did not carry him..theres footage of several rounds of jack going all out for the ko...he beat both twin sullivan guys and fought a 6 round draw with near great middle in klaus..lost a hardfought newspaper descion to sam langford and a rematch was schudled in a few months but stan got himself shot to death..he deserves a top 10 ranking..in the 2 years after he established himself he fought a good dozen fights against the best avalible and did extremly well..he would of continued to own the middle division for 4 or 5 more years but circumstances made his career a short 7 years..i hope this helps a bit.

dmar5143 wrote:

marble maybe i can help on both cerdan and ketchel..and yes im one that feels there both top ten middles.cerdan first was in the french army for 3 years.he did fight but army duties prevented him from traveling overseas which is understandable since france was heavy into WW2 at that time while the usa was not..after his army stint was over cerdan was thinking as soon as its over he would go to the usa and fight but the usa then got involved in ww2 and again cerdans travel restrictions were applied..he then got involved in the french underground resistence..when the war finaly ended cerdan did go to the usa and did fight and beat top world class middles..abrams yes was one but also you ommited the formitable harold green..he beat zale and was beating lamotta dispite fighting several rounds with one arm..the last 2 are well respected hofamers..cerdan in thoses fights against world class competion of zale lamotta green abrahms deminstrated severel skills that were accomplished..great body puncher excellent combo puncher tech very sound..strong and durable endurance toughness and ring inteligence..based on the evidence of fighting 2 respected hofamers and realy getting the best of them and beating green abrahms and yes a holman williams is enough proof to say if there wasnt a war he would of been here sooner..talent wise he was that good..
on ketchel he was argueably the hardest punching middle ever..a rocky graziano slugger style but he was one name i was going to submit in your short career thread..yes he had over 50 fights but fought only 7 years..killed at what 24..it took some 4 to 5 years to establish himself and learn the trade..at 22 years old he was ready...who did he fight..well he beat i think 3 times HOFamer and lightheavy champ philidelphia jack obrein..the beat hofamer middle champ billy papke 3 times..it would of been four if not for the sucker punch..he had ATG heavy champ jack johnson on the floor and contrary to the BS johnson did not carry him..theres footage of several rounds of jack going all out for the ko...he beat both twin sullivan guys and fought a 6 round draw with near great middle in klaus..lost a hardfought newspaper descion to sam langford and a rematch was schudled in a few months but stan got himself shot to death..he deserves a top 10 ranking..in the 2 years after he established himself he fought a good dozen fights against the best avalible and did extremly well..he would of continued to own the middle division for 4 or 5 more years but circumstances made his career a short 7 years..i hope this helps a bit.

Dayum!

Very helpful on both! But while Cerdan may have been unfairly hampered by WWII, even you have to put a little "coulda, woulda, shoulda" into the equation to get him there.

I think part of it with Cerdan and many people who never get to fulfill their potential due to tragic circumstances, they get the benefit of the doubt.

He was unquestionably talented and accomplished. But I think he also gets an extra push for things he could've accomplished had he lived. The fact that his reputation carried on so strongly after he died also adds more than what we have available to base him on.

Gumby wrote:

I think part of it with Cerdan and many people who never get to fulfill their potential due to tragic circumstances, they get the benefit of the doubt.

He was unquestionably talented and accomplished. But I think he also gets an extra push for things he could've accomplished had he lived. The fact that his reputation carried on so strongly after he died also adds more than what we have available to base him on.

Yeah and if he was 23 I guess I'd understand that more. But he was 33 and had 110 fights. I dunno. Maybe 20 more fights make a difference.

You lost me marble, at:
I don't know, but isn't it likely that the best French men were otherwise occupied in those years? I mean doesn't someone actually have to do the surrendering?

I'm too busy laughing my ass off to read the rest of your post

marbleheadmaui wrote:

Gumby wrote:

I think part of it with Cerdan and many people who never get to fulfill their potential due to tragic circumstances, they get the benefit of the doubt.

He was unquestionably talented and accomplished. But I think he also gets an extra push for things he could've accomplished had he lived. The fact that his reputation carried on so strongly after he died also adds more than what we have available to base him on.

Yeah and if he was 23 I guess I'd understand that more. But he was 33 and had 110 fights. I dunno. Maybe 20 more fights make a difference.

I thought he was younger when he went. I've got nothin. He might still get a bump if he was a class act when he was alive or people really respected him. Maybe he gets a little credit for doing it out of France? Kind of a higher degree of difficulty type thing. Fairly clueless though.

Gumby wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:

Gumby wrote:

I think part of it with Cerdan and many people who never get to fulfill their potential due to tragic circumstances, they get the benefit of the doubt.

He was unquestionably talented and accomplished. But I think he also gets an extra push for things he could've accomplished had he lived. The fact that his reputation carried on so strongly after he died also adds more than what we have available to base him on.

Yeah and if he was 23 I guess I'd understand that more. But he was 33 and had 110 fights. I dunno. Maybe 20 more fights make a difference.

I thought he was younger when he went. I've got nothin. He might still get a bump if he was a class act when he was alive or people really respected him. Maybe he gets a little credit for doing it out of France? Kind of a higher degree of difficulty type thing. Fairly clueless though.

Well he gets extra credit for nailing Edith Piaf I suppose