Immortal Argument

Him being a prick clouds people's judgement. He is a great fighter and 1 of the best ever.

freakzilla316ftw wrote:

Him being a prick clouds people's judgement. He is a great fighter and 1 of the best ever.

No we just realize that he has never KO'd anyone in the welterweight division and is running scared of Pac right now. Hearns would laugh as he was kicking his ass.

Manny is running from Floyd not the other way around. Floyd would smash Manny.

freakzilla316ftw wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:

freakzilla316ftw wrote:

No RJJ or Bernard Hopkins?

The idea here was the be incredibly exlusive. A super-duper HOF if you will. Mere greatness isn't enough.

RJJ and Bernard Hopkins are greater than Manny and atleast half the people you listed. Old boxers are way overated and new age boxers are way underated. Lennox Lewis deserves to be on it also.

LOL,. riiiiiiiiiiiiiight.

freakzilla316ftw wrote:

soonermark890 wrote:

freakzilla316ftw wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:

freakzilla316ftw wrote:

No RJJ or Bernard Hopkins?

The idea here was the be incredibly exlusive. A super-duper HOF if you will. Mere greatness isn't enough.

RJJ and Bernard Hopkins are greater than Manny and atleast half the people you listed. Old boxers are way overated and new age boxers are way underated. Lennox Lewis deserves to be on it also.

LL? WTF? He ducked guys who were in their prime. He also was KO'd by two cans.

What happened in the return fights though? How do we know he ducked then? Did he ever say it himself he didn't want to fight them? He's easily a top 10 heavyweight ever.

EASILY????????? Getting wasted by two different mediocrities in his prime? I mdon't think so.

freakzilla316ftw wrote:

He would beat Marciano, Jeffries, Walcott, Tunney and Langford.

LOL, let me get this straight. Hasim Rahman knocked him senseless and you are going to favor him over legendary destructive machines like Jeffries? REALLY???????

freakzilla316ftw wrote:

Just because someone was good 100 years ago when hardly anyone did boxing and from a handfull of countries doesn't make them great. People try to put the modern day athletes down all the time and build up the past for some unkown reason. Seriously, how many fighters from the past can beat FMJ at either 140 or 147? not many that's for sure.

Respectfully you don't know what you're talking about. 100 years ago there were champions from the Phillipines, Africa, Europe and South America. 90 years ago there were TWICE as many boxers as we have today stuffed into 1/2 as many divisions. Oh yeah, they fought twice as often.

So unless you think boxing is the one human endeavor where we get better at it the LESS we do? Gotta rethink things.

freakzilla316ftw wrote:

soonermark890 wrote:

freakzilla316ftw wrote:

Just because someone was good 100 years ago when hardly anyone did boxing and from a handfull of countries doesn't make them great. People try to put the modern day athletes down all the time and build up the past for some unkown reason. Seriously, how many fighters from the past can beat FMJ at either 140 or 147? not many that's for sure.

Every great 147 would KO Floyd. This is odd I never argue against todays fighters. I will just let Marble or Dmar take this one.

They wouldn't be able to touch him.

LOL! You've just never seen Ray Robinson or Ike Williams or Carlos Ortiz or Tony Canzoneri fight have you? Ray Leonard DESTROYS Floyd. Tommy Hearns might just KILL him.

In reality you aren't even placing Floyd in his best division. That's 130. He would then be matched up with men like Arguello and Azumah and Sandy Saddler and Henry Armstrong and Flash Elorde. He does much better there.

freakzilla316ftw wrote:

Him being a prick clouds people's judgement. He is a great fighter and 1 of the best ever.

Nope, he's merely one of the most talented ever. Compared to the greats of the past he is really untested.

freakzilla316ftw wrote:

Manny is running from Floyd not the other way around. Floyd would smash Manny.

Wrong on #1 and I think right on #2.

But Floyd is being Floyd and doing what he's done for a decade, not take risky matchups.

marbleheadmaui wrote:

freakzilla316ftw wrote:

Just because someone was good 100 years ago when hardly anyone did boxing and from a handfull of countries doesn't make them great. People try to put the modern day athletes down all the time and build up the past for some unkown reason. Seriously, how many fighters from the past can beat FMJ at either 140 or 147? not many that's for sure.

Respectfully you don't know what you're talking about. 100 years ago there were champions from the Phillipines, Africa, Europe and South America. 90 years ago there were TWICE as many boxers as we have today stuffed into 1/2 as many divisions. Oh yeah, they fought twice as often.

So unless you think boxing is the one human endeavor where we get better at it the LESS we do? Gotta rethink things.

None of your "facts" are right. In every sport in the world the modern athlete is better than before. Why should boxing be any different?

freakzilla316ftw wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:

freakzilla316ftw wrote:

Just because someone was good 100 years ago when hardly anyone did boxing and from a handfull of countries doesn't make them great. People try to put the modern day athletes down all the time and build up the past for some unkown reason. Seriously, how many fighters from the past can beat FMJ at either 140 or 147? not many that's for sure.

Respectfully you don't know what you're talking about. 100 years ago there were champions from the Phillipines, Africa, Europe and South America. 90 years ago there were TWICE as many boxers as we have today stuffed into 1/2 as many divisions. Oh yeah, they fought twice as often.

So unless you think boxing is the one human endeavor where we get better at it the LESS we do? Gotta rethink things.

None of your "facts" are right. In every sport in the world the modern athlete is better than before. Why should boxing be any different?

ALL of my facts are right.
1. First African Champ was Battling Siki before WWI. First Filipino Champ was Pancho Villa after WWI. First European Champ was Georges Carpentier in 1920. First Latin American Champion was Joe Walcott around 1900. First Australian Champion was Young Griffo pre-1900. Questions?
2. Just as one comparison, in the 1920's there were 10,000 registered boxers in New York State Alone. Today in New York State there are fewer than 100. We have roughly 5,000 active fighters worldwide at the moment.
3. There were formerly eight divisions. Now there are 17. That is MORE than twice as many.
4. From 1920-1950 the average fighter had 70 fights before he first won a title. Why? Twice as many fighters jammed into half the divisions fighting for ONE title. Today? That number is 27. In other words dramtically less competition and fewer fights.

EVERY ONE of those facts are correct.

The reason other athletes have improved are several fold. MORE resources devoted to those sports. MORE people participating. No size restrictions. Enhanced training methods. But those generally don't apply to boxing.
1. We have FEWER boxing gyms than we've had for 50 years. We have fewer boxing shows than we've had for 50 years. We have FEWER resources, not more.
2. We have FEWER people participating. Why? Well, 50+ years ago gifted athletes had basically two professional sports options. Baseball and boxing. As a result, boxing got the cream of the athletic crop. That is simply no longer true. Today one can make a good living in golf, tennis, soccer, swimming, weightlifting, gymnastics, track and field, skiing, skating and on and on I can go. The sports world has exploded. Who would choose to get punched in the face if they have options?
3. Boxing is size restricted. 147 is 147. The math isn't contestable. Big welters 80 years ago were 5'11 with the occasional freak over 6'. Same as today. Muscle weights more than fat and it simply isn't possible to make a more muscular 147 once he is finely tuned. You simply end up turning them into middleweights. In otehr sports guys are simply much bigger than they used to be.
4. Football players, NBA players etc. began really broadly adopting "training methods" (weightlifitng, agility work etc) no more than 35 years ago. Boxers have been being trained for 300 years. 110 years ago Jim Jeffries training included morning runs, interval runs, plyometrics, swimming, sparring, speedbag, heavy bag, weightlifting, massages and wrestling. Today fighters STILL focus on those things. Training fighters has a far longer history and they were way aheead of the curve.

In other words most/all of the trends that allowed other sports to improve are reversed in boxing.

6'8 220 pound Baseketball players today are wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyy better than basketball players of the same size 50 years ago. So size has nothing to do with it. Look at swimmers. They're way faster now also. People try to look good by saying they know things from the past by undervaluing the present. RJJ, FMJ and Kostya Tzyu are all top 3 ever in their main weight classes yet they get no respect.

freakzilla316ftw wrote:

6'8 220 pound Baseketball players today are wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyy better than basketball players of the same size 50 years ago. So size has nothing to do with it. Look at swimmers. They're way faster now also. People try to look good by saying they know things from the past by undervaluing the present. RJJ, FMJ and Kostya Tzyu are all top 3 ever in their main weight classes yet they get no respect.

I am almost always on the other side of this argument and I wouldnt even go as far as you do. Floyd is a joke who will not even fight the best of his own era and you think he could beat guys like Hearns. WOW

freakzilla316ftw wrote:

6'8 220 pound Baseketball players today are wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyy better than basketball players of the same size 50 years ago. So size has nothing to do with it. Look at swimmers. They're way faster now also. People try to look good by saying they know things from the past by undervaluing the present. RJJ, FMJ and Kostya Tzyu are all top 3 ever in their main weight classes yet they get no respect.

Size has EVERYTHING to do with it. Sprinters are taller, so are swimmers, so are offensive tackles etc. Bigger men can now do the things only smaller men used to be able to do.

Again, if it applied to boxing we'd have the greatest heavyweights of all time rather than the shams we have there now.

You are making assertions without providing a SHRED of actual data to support them.

Care to debate any of the facts I provided above?

marbleheadmaui wrote:

freakzilla316ftw wrote:

6'8 220 pound Baseketball players today are wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyy better than basketball players of the same size 50 years ago. So size has nothing to do with it. Look at swimmers. They're way faster now also. People try to look good by saying they know things from the past by undervaluing the present. RJJ, FMJ and Kostya Tzyu are all top 3 ever in their main weight classes yet they get no respect.

Size has EVERYTHING to do with it. Sprinters are taller, so are swimmers, so are offensive tackles etc. Bigger men can now do the things only smaller men used to be able to do.

Again, if it applied to boxing we'd have the greatest heavyweights of all time rather than the shams we have there now.

You are making assertions without providing a SHRED of actual data to support them.

Oh now come on the big klits are not shams they might still be top 10 guys in other eras.

soonermark890 wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:

freakzilla316ftw wrote:

6'8 220 pound Baseketball players today are wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyy better than basketball players of the same size 50 years ago. So size has nothing to do with it. Look at swimmers. They're way faster now also. People try to look good by saying they know things from the past by undervaluing the present. RJJ, FMJ and Kostya Tzyu are all top 3 ever in their main weight classes yet they get no respect.

Size has EVERYTHING to do with it. Sprinters are taller, so are swimmers, so are offensive tackles etc. Bigger men can now do the things only smaller men used to be able to do.

Again, if it applied to boxing we'd have the greatest heavyweights of all time rather than the shams we have there now.

You are making assertions without providing a SHRED of actual data to support them.

Oh now come on the big klits are not shams they might still be top 10 guys in other eras.

What makes the division a sham is we have men who in your own words "MIGHT be top ten guys in other eras" WRECKING this one.

marbleheadmaui wrote:

soonermark890 wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:

freakzilla316ftw wrote:

6'8 220 pound Baseketball players today are wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyy better than basketball players of the same size 50 years ago. So size has nothing to do with it. Look at swimmers. They're way faster now also. People try to look good by saying they know things from the past by undervaluing the present. RJJ, FMJ and Kostya Tzyu are all top 3 ever in their main weight classes yet they get no respect.

Size has EVERYTHING to do with it. Sprinters are taller, so are swimmers, so are offensive tackles etc. Bigger men can now do the things only smaller men used to be able to do.

Again, if it applied to boxing we'd have the greatest heavyweights of all time rather than the shams we have there now.

You are making assertions without providing a SHRED of actual data to support them.

Oh now come on the big klits are not shams they might still be top 10 guys in other eras.

What makes the division a sham is we have men who in your own words "MIGHT be top ten guys in other eras" WRECKING this one.

It just means its a down era. There are only a few that those two would have not been top 10 guys. In the 80's they might have been great.

soonermark890 wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:

soonermark890 wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:

freakzilla316ftw wrote:

6'8 220 pound Baseketball players today are wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyy better than basketball players of the same size 50 years ago. So size has nothing to do with it. Look at swimmers. They're way faster now also. People try to look good by saying they know things from the past by undervaluing the present. RJJ, FMJ and Kostya Tzyu are all top 3 ever in their main weight classes yet they get no respect.

Size has EVERYTHING to do with it. Sprinters are taller, so are swimmers, so are offensive tackles etc. Bigger men can now do the things only smaller men used to be able to do.

Again, if it applied to boxing we'd have the greatest heavyweights of all time rather than the shams we have there now.

You are making assertions without providing a SHRED of actual data to support them.

Oh now come on the big klits are not shams they might still be top 10 guys in other eras.

What makes the division a sham is we have men who in your own words "MIGHT be top ten guys in other eras" WRECKING this one.

It just means its a down era. There are only a few that those two would have not been top 10 guys. In the 80's they might have been great.

But how can we POSSIBLY be having a down era in this time of magic training and magic pills and other magical new stuff?

marbleheadmaui wrote:

soonermark890 wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:

soonermark890 wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:

freakzilla316ftw wrote:

6'8 220 pound Baseketball players today are wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyy better than basketball players of the same size 50 years ago. So size has nothing to do with it. Look at swimmers. They're way faster now also. People try to look good by saying they know things from the past by undervaluing the present. RJJ, FMJ and Kostya Tzyu are all top 3 ever in their main weight classes yet they get no respect.

Size has EVERYTHING to do with it. Sprinters are taller, so are swimmers, so are offensive tackles etc. Bigger men can now do the things only smaller men used to be able to do.

Again, if it applied to boxing we'd have the greatest heavyweights of all time rather than the shams we have there now.

You are making assertions without providing a SHRED of actual data to support them.

Oh now come on the big klits are not shams they might still be top 10 guys in other eras.

What makes the division a sham is we have men who in your own words "MIGHT be top ten guys in other eras" WRECKING this one.

It just means its a down era. There are only a few that those two would have not been top 10 guys. In the 80's they might have been great.

But how can we POSSIBLY be having a down era in this time of magic training and magic pills and other magical new stuff?

LOL That stuff can only make you so good and you know that. Stop making fun of me!!!! (I am now putting my fingers in my ears and yelling LALALALALALALALALAL.) I cant hear you.

soonermark890 wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:

soonermark890 wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:

soonermark890 wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:

freakzilla316ftw wrote:

6'8 220 pound Baseketball players today are wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyy better than basketball players of the same size 50 years ago. So size has nothing to do with it. Look at swimmers. They're way faster now also. People try to look good by saying they know things from the past by undervaluing the present. RJJ, FMJ and Kostya Tzyu are all top 3 ever in their main weight classes yet they get no respect.

Size has EVERYTHING to do with it. Sprinters are taller, so are swimmers, so are offensive tackles etc. Bigger men can now do the things only smaller men used to be able to do.

Again, if it applied to boxing we'd have the greatest heavyweights of all time rather than the shams we have there now.

You are making assertions without providing a SHRED of actual data to support them.

Oh now come on the big klits are not shams they might still be top 10 guys in other eras.

What makes the division a sham is we have men who in your own words "MIGHT be top ten guys in other eras" WRECKING this one.

It just means its a down era. There are only a few that those two would have not been top 10 guys. In the 80's they might have been great.

But how can we POSSIBLY be having a down era in this time of magic training and magic pills and other magical new stuff?

LOL That stuff can only make you so good and you know that. Stop making fun of me!!!! (I am now putting my fingers in my ears and yelling LALALALALALALALALAL.) I cant hear you.

I think your last move might be the most intelligent one either of us have made in our entire discourse

im back from florida..guys why you debateing with someone who knows nothing...bo hop jones and floyd arent in the immortal list cause there light years away from that...at 147 mickey walker not only kos floyd.he retires him..ditto robinson and hearns..mclarlin drops him since jimmy has seen everything that floyd can do by fighting other fighters...only he saw it better from the other guys.leanords to much for him brain wise hand speed wise..basilio chases him out of the ring...135 duran puts big hurt on him..benny leanard takes him to school..at 126 pep makes a fool out of him saddler crushes him.armstrong simply is on his chest all night..i can go on and on and name 20 more guys in his weight classes that give him more then he can handle..Lennox lewis..yep .mr caution himself..

dmar5143 wrote:

im back from florida..guys why you debateing with someone who knows nothing...bo hop jones and floyd arent in the immortal list cause there light years away from that...at 147 mickey walker not only kos floyd.he retires him..ditto robinson and hearns..mclarlin drops him since jimmy has seen everything that floyd can do by fighting other fighters...only he saw it better from the other guys.leanords to much for him brain wise hand speed wise..basilio chases him out of the ring...135 duran puts big hurt on him..benny leanard takes him to school..at 126 pep makes a fool out of him saddler crushes him.armstrong simply is on his chest all night..i can go on and on and name 20 more guys in his weight classes that give him more then he can handle..Lennox lewis..yep .mr caution himself..

LOL I am going to split this topic and remove the argument.

dmar5143 wrote:

im back from florida..guys why you debateing with someone who knows nothing...bo hop jones and floyd arent in the immortal list cause there light years away from that...at 147 mickey walker not only kos floyd.he retires him..ditto robinson and hearns..mclarlin drops him since jimmy has seen everything that floyd can do by fighting other fighters...only he saw it better from the other guys.leanords to much for him brain wise hand speed wise..basilio chases him out of the ring...135 duran puts big hurt on him..benny leanard takes him to school..at 126 pep makes a fool out of him saddler crushes him.armstrong simply is on his chest all night..i can go on and on and name 20 more guys in his weight classes that give him more then he can handle..Lennox lewis..yep .mr caution himself..

Welcome back!

We're just continuing our missionary work, spreading the Gospel of Pugilism.

sooners you didnt split the thread right