Lucian Bute vs. Librado Andrade I

since you know andrade was the main event tonite on FNF i figured i would see what you guys think about his first fight w/ bute. IMO and i'm sure a lot of other peoples he got screwed. That ref took way too long to start the count and let bute recover when he should have not made the count

Marlon Wright should have been suspended after that fight. It was a bad, bad count. For whatever reason he thought that Andrade was coming out of his neutral corner which anyone with eyes could see he wasn't. Bute should have a loss on his record and in the court of public opinion he does. The referee's decision hasn't affected Andrade's career, if anything it made him sort of a people's champ and because of how bad Wright's behavior was the fight got more exposure than it should have and probably did more for Andrade's career than winning would have. Bute did however avenge his only "loss" with a very impressive KO and the fight was on HBO for big money. All in all the decision in that fight has boosted the careers of both fighters. One guy is now known as an Iron jawed people's champ folk hero of sorts. Bute is now the number one ranked Super Middle weight and will command some big money going forward.

hardcoreBEE24 wrote:

Marlon Wright should have been suspended after that fight. It was a bad, bad count. For whatever reason he thought that Andrade was coming out of his neutral corner which anyone with eyes could see he wasn't. Bute should have a loss on his record and in the court of public opinion he does. The referee's decision hasn't affected Andrade's career, if anything it made him sort of a people's champ and because of how bad Wright's behavior was the fight got more exposure than it should have and probably did more for Andrade's career than winning would have. Bute did however avenge his only "loss" with a very impressive KO and the fight was on HBO for big money. All in all the decision in that fight has boosted the careers of both fighters. One guy is now known as an Iron jawed people's champ folk hero of sorts. Bute is now the number one ranked Super Middle weight and will command some big money going forward.

i saw the 2nd fight on HBO when i had it and bute didn't leave anything up to question in that fight. but i just figured i would throw something out to talk about and see what people had to say, but you've pretty muched summed up my feelings on that first fight

hardcoreBEE24 wrote:

Marlon Wright should have been suspended after that fight. It was a bad, bad count. For whatever reason he thought that Andrade was coming out of his neutral corner which anyone with eyes could see he wasn't. Bute should have a loss on his record and in the court of public opinion he does. The referee's decision hasn't affected Andrade's career, if anything it made him sort of a people's champ and because of how bad Wright's behavior was the fight got more exposure than it should have and probably did more for Andrade's career than winning would have. Bute did however avenge his only "loss" with a very impressive KO and the fight was on HBO for big money. All in all the decision in that fight has boosted the careers of both fighters. One guy is now known as an Iron jawed people's champ folk hero of sorts. Bute is now the number one ranked Super Middle weight and will command some big money going forward.

SoftcorePourAlcoholOnHisWaxedChest hit the nail on the head.

Deezy0814 wrote:

hardcoreBEE24 wrote:

Marlon Wright should have been suspended after that fight. It was a bad, bad count. For whatever reason he thought that Andrade was coming out of his neutral corner which anyone with eyes could see he wasn't. Bute should have a loss on his record and in the court of public opinion he does. The referee's decision hasn't affected Andrade's career, if anything it made him sort of a people's champ and because of how bad Wright's behavior was the fight got more exposure than it should have and probably did more for Andrade's career than winning would have. Bute did however avenge his only "loss" with a very impressive KO and the fight was on HBO for big money. All in all the decision in that fight has boosted the careers of both fighters. One guy is now known as an Iron jawed people's champ folk hero of sorts. Bute is now the number one ranked Super Middle weight and will command some big money going forward.

i saw the 2nd fight on HBO when i had it and bute didn't leave anything up to question in that fight. but i just figured i would throw something out to talk about and see what people had to say, but you've pretty muched summed up my feelings on that first fight

Pretty strange how that worked out in the end. I'm happy both guys are getting the exposure they deserve.

[quote="Ali_1748"]

hardcoreBEE24 wrote:

Marlon Wright should have been suspended after that fight. It was a bad, bad count. For whatever reason he thought that Andrade was coming out of his neutral corner which anyone with eyes could see he wasn't. Bute should have a loss on his record and in the court of public opinion he does. The referee's decision hasn't affected Andrade's career, if anything it made him sort of a people's champ and because of how bad Wright's behavior was the fight got more exposure than it should have and probably did more for Andrade's career than winning would have. Bute did however avenge his only "loss" with a very impressive KO and the fight was on HBO for big money. All in all the decision in that fight has boosted the careers of both fighters. One guy is now known as an Iron jawed people's champ folk hero of sorts. Bute is now the number one ranked Super Middle weight and will command some big money going forward.

SoftcorePourAlcoholOnHisWaxedChest hit the nail on the head.[/quote]

Deezy0814 wrote:

since you know andrade was the main event tonite on FNF i figured i would see what you guys think about his first fight w/ bute. IMO and i'm sure a lot of other peoples he got screwed. That ref took way too long to start the count and let bute recover when he should have not made the count

Disagree completely. Yeah the ref screwed up but it didn't matter.

1. Bute was up well before ten seconds and the bell had rung

2. The IBF rulebook specifically says "being up" is when the fighters "gloves clear the floor"

hardcoreBEE24 wrote:

Marlon Wright should have been suspended after that fight. It was a bad, bad count. For whatever reason he thought that Andrade was coming out of his neutral corner which anyone with eyes could see he wasn't. Bute should have a loss on his record and in the court of public opinion he does. The referee's decision hasn't affected Andrade's career, if anything it made him sort of a people's champ and because of how bad Wright's behavior was the fight got more exposure than it should have and probably did more for Andrade's career than winning would have. Bute did however avenge his only "loss" with a very impressive KO and the fight was on HBO for big money. All in all the decision in that fight has boosted the careers of both fighters. One guy is now known as an Iron jawed people's champ folk hero of sorts. Bute is now the number one ranked Super Middle weight and will command some big money going forward.

Sorry, just wrong. Bute was up before ten seconds and the bell had rung and the fight was over. HOW it got there was screwy, and yeah the ref was awful, but the right guy won the fight.

that was a long 10 count.

marbleheadmaui wrote:

hardcoreBEE24 wrote:

Marlon Wright should have been suspended after that fight. It was a bad, bad count. For whatever reason he thought that Andrade was coming out of his neutral corner which anyone with eyes could see he wasn't. Bute should have a loss on his record and in the court of public opinion he does. The referee's decision hasn't affected Andrade's career, if anything it made him sort of a people's champ and because of how bad Wright's behavior was the fight got more exposure than it should have and probably did more for Andrade's career than winning would have. Bute did however avenge his only "loss" with a very impressive KO and the fight was on HBO for big money. All in all the decision in that fight has boosted the careers of both fighters. One guy is now known as an Iron jawed people's champ folk hero of sorts. Bute is now the number one ranked Super Middle weight and will command some big money going forward.

Sorry, just wrong. Bute was up before ten seconds and the bell had rung and the fight was over. HOW it got there was screwy, and yeah the ref was awful, but the right guy won the fight.

You see it your way, I see it the way the everyone else did. He might have been up before ten but Wright didn't count right away and look at when he goes to give him the standing eight. When Wright says seven that was already 10 or 12. You can't be saved by the bell. He was in terrible shape before the KD and wasn't defending himself, the fight could have been stopped there like Taylor Chavez. In the court of everyone else but Marbles opinion he was KO'd. This sort of stuff is subjective, that's why they have judges. I'm not wrong and neither are you.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BD5rCPcXJ0&feature=related

hardcoreBEE24 wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:

hardcoreBEE24 wrote:

Marlon Wright should have been suspended after that fight. It was a bad, bad count. For whatever reason he thought that Andrade was coming out of his neutral corner which anyone with eyes could see he wasn't. Bute should have a loss on his record and in the court of public opinion he does. The referee's decision hasn't affected Andrade's career, if anything it made him sort of a people's champ and because of how bad Wright's behavior was the fight got more exposure than it should have and probably did more for Andrade's career than winning would have. Bute did however avenge his only "loss" with a very impressive KO and the fight was on HBO for big money. All in all the decision in that fight has boosted the careers of both fighters. One guy is now known as an Iron jawed people's champ folk hero of sorts. Bute is now the number one ranked Super Middle weight and will command some big money going forward.

Sorry, just wrong. Bute was up before ten seconds and the bell had rung and the fight was over. HOW it got there was screwy, and yeah the ref was awful, but the right guy won the fight.

You see it your way, I see it the way the everyone else did. He might have been up before ten but Wright didn't count right away and look at when he goes to give him the standing eight. When Wright says seven that was already 10 or 12. You can't be saved by the bell. He was in terrible shape before the KD and wasn't defending himself, the fight could have been stopped there like Taylor Chavez. In the court of everyone else but Marbles opinion he was KO'd. This sort of stuff is subjective, that's why they have judges. I'm not wrong and neither are you.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BD5rCPcXJ0&feature=related

No, it isn't subjective. Ya gotta read the rule book. The IBF says specifically in that situation where the three minutes have ended that the only thing that matters is that the fighters gloves clear the floor. There is NO requirement for being able to continue or anything else. The ONLY argument for Bute not winning that fight is if he was down for more than ten seconds. He wasn't. Watch the video you provided. Bute is down at one minute and up at between 1:07 and 1:08.

Bute beat the count and had more than enough rounds in the bank. Legit win.

marbleheadmaui wrote:

hardcoreBEE24 wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:

hardcoreBEE24 wrote:

Marlon Wright should have been suspended after that fight. It was a bad, bad count. For whatever reason he thought that Andrade was coming out of his neutral corner which anyone with eyes could see he wasn't. Bute should have a loss on his record and in the court of public opinion he does. The referee's decision hasn't affected Andrade's career, if anything it made him sort of a people's champ and because of how bad Wright's behavior was the fight got more exposure than it should have and probably did more for Andrade's career than winning would have. Bute did however avenge his only "loss" with a very impressive KO and the fight was on HBO for big money. All in all the decision in that fight has boosted the careers of both fighters. One guy is now known as an Iron jawed people's champ folk hero of sorts. Bute is now the number one ranked Super Middle weight and will command some big money going forward.

Sorry, just wrong. Bute was up before ten seconds and the bell had rung and the fight was over. HOW it got there was screwy, and yeah the ref was awful, but the right guy won the fight.

You see it your way, I see it the way the everyone else did. He might have been up before ten but Wright didn't count right away and look at when he goes to give him the standing eight. When Wright says seven that was already 10 or 12. You can't be saved by the bell. He was in terrible shape before the KD and wasn't defending himself, the fight could have been stopped there like Taylor Chavez. In the court of everyone else but Marbles opinion he was KO'd. This sort of stuff is subjective, that's why they have judges. I'm not wrong and neither are you.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BD5rCPcXJ0&feature=related

No, it isn't subjective. Ya gotta read the rule book. The IBF says specifically in that situation where the three minutes have ended that the only thing that matters is that the fighters gloves clear the floor. There is NO requirement for being able to continue or anything else. The ONLY argument for Bute not winning that fight is if he was down for more than ten seconds. He wasn't. Watch the video you provided. Bute is down at one minute and up at between 1:07 and 1:08.

From the guy that justifies Steele stopping Taylor. Like I said he says seven it was twelve. I stated he was up before the ten count. The count however was long. It is subjective as you have stated many many many times in the past. Why was he pointing to Andrade to go to his corner when he was already there? He was up before ten but the ref should have stopped that contest, Bute had no idea where he was.

hardcoreBEE24 wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:

hardcoreBEE24 wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:

hardcoreBEE24 wrote:

Marlon Wright should have been suspended after that fight. It was a bad, bad count. For whatever reason he thought that Andrade was coming out of his neutral corner which anyone with eyes could see he wasn't. Bute should have a loss on his record and in the court of public opinion he does. The referee's decision hasn't affected Andrade's career, if anything it made him sort of a people's champ and because of how bad Wright's behavior was the fight got more exposure than it should have and probably did more for Andrade's career than winning would have. Bute did however avenge his only "loss" with a very impressive KO and the fight was on HBO for big money. All in all the decision in that fight has boosted the careers of both fighters. One guy is now known as an Iron jawed people's champ folk hero of sorts. Bute is now the number one ranked Super Middle weight and will command some big money going forward.

Sorry, just wrong. Bute was up before ten seconds and the bell had rung and the fight was over. HOW it got there was screwy, and yeah the ref was awful, but the right guy won the fight.

You see it your way, I see it the way the everyone else did. He might have been up before ten but Wright didn't count right away and look at when he goes to give him the standing eight. When Wright says seven that was already 10 or 12. You can't be saved by the bell. He was in terrible shape before the KD and wasn't defending himself, the fight could have been stopped there like Taylor Chavez. In the court of everyone else but Marbles opinion he was KO'd. This sort of stuff is subjective, that's why they have judges. I'm not wrong and neither are you.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BD5rCPcXJ0&feature=related

No, it isn't subjective. Ya gotta read the rule book. The IBF says specifically in that situation where the three minutes have ended that the only thing that matters is that the fighters gloves clear the floor. There is NO requirement for being able to continue or anything else. The ONLY argument for Bute not winning that fight is if he was down for more than ten seconds. He wasn't. Watch the video you provided. Bute is down at one minute and up at between 1:07 and 1:08.

From the guy that justifies Steele stopping Taylor. Like I said he says seven it was twelve. I stated he was up before the ten count. The count however was long. It is subjective as you have stated many many many times in the past. Why was he pointing to Andrade to go to his corner when he was already there? He was up before ten but the ref should have stopped that contest, Bute had no idea where he was.

First this fighyt is the EXACT OPPOSITE if Taylor Chavez. In THAT fight the governing issue was the round was NOT over and Taylor was vulnerable to getting hit again. In THIS fight the round WAS over and Bute was NOT vulnerable to getting hit again. It is why the IBF breaks out this specific situation seperately.

Second, why in heaven's name would you stop a fight after it was over????????

The three minutes were up. It was IMPOSSIBLE for Bute to get hit again. By RULE, the fight ends when Bute's gloves clear the floor. Where is the room for subjectivity?

I am NOT defending the ref. He was awful. All I am saying is Bute was "up" (according to the IBF rulebook definition in this situation) well before ten seconds in actual time had elapsed. Again, isn't that objectively true? Isn't everything else irrelevant? The right guy won unless you think the ref should have stopped the fight PRIOR to the knock down. But I can't think of a single fight in history where the guy who got knocked down got up to win where folks have taken the view that the win wasn't legit.

I should say I am probably in the minority in my view but I am utterly baffled as to why. The IBF rulebook makes the situation pretty clear...or maybe not

marbleheadmaui wrote:

I should say I am probably in the minority in my view but I am utterly baffled as to why. The IBF rulebook makes the situation pretty clear...or maybe not

You are %100 correct. He was clearly off the canvas within seconds. Fight was over. Scorecards.

There was a previous knockdown that wasn't called, the ropes held Bute up at one point. I don't really care about the IBF rule book to be honest Marble, it's another shifty sanctioning body.

Ali_1748 wrote:

There was a previous knockdown that wasn't called, the ropes held Bute up at one point. I don't really care about the IBF rule book to be honest Marble, it's another shifty sanctioning body.

[shrug]

It's the rules the fighters agreed to. It is what it is.

marbleheadmaui wrote:

Ali_1748 wrote:

There was a previous knockdown that wasn't called, the ropes held Bute up at one point. I don't really care about the IBF rule book to be honest Marble, it's another shifty sanctioning body.

[shrug]

It's the rules the fighters agreed to. It is what it is.

Even if Bute beat the count he was in no condition to continue, in my eyes it should have been stopped.

Ali_1748 wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:

Ali_1748 wrote:

There was a previous knockdown that wasn't called, the ropes held Bute up at one point. I don't really care about the IBF rule book to be honest Marble, it's another shifty sanctioning body.

[shrug]

It's the rules the fighters agreed to. It is what it is.

Even if Bute beat the count he was in no condition to continue, in my eyes it should have been stopped.

OK, but that is NOT the rule the fighters agreed to fight under.

marbleheadmaui wrote:

Ali_1748 wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:

Ali_1748 wrote:

There was a previous knockdown that wasn't called, the ropes held Bute up at one point. I don't really care about the IBF rule book to be honest Marble, it's another shifty sanctioning body.

[shrug]

It's the rules the fighters agreed to. It is what it is.

Even if Bute beat the count he was in no condition to continue, in my eyes it should have been stopped.

OK, but that is NOT the rule the fighters agreed to fight under.

So the ref doesn't have the authority to wave off the fight under IBF rules ?

IMO it should have been called when Bute stumbled across the ring and ate a huge hook and got Knocked down.

hardcoreBEE24 wrote:

IMO it should have been called when Bute stumbled across the ring and ate a huge hook and got Knocked down.

Agreed.

Ali_1748 wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:

Ali_1748 wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:

Ali_1748 wrote:

There was a previous knockdown that wasn't called, the ropes held Bute up at one point. I don't really care about the IBF rule book to be honest Marble, it's another shifty sanctioning body.

[shrug]

It's the rules the fighters agreed to. It is what it is.

Even if Bute beat the count he was in no condition to continue, in my eyes it should have been stopped.

OK, but that is NOT the rule the fighters agreed to fight under.

So the ref doesn't have the authority to wave off the fight under IBF rules ?

Once the three minutes are over in a given round, if the fighter has been knocked down and remains down at the three minute mark, once his gloves clear the canvas? The round is over. If it is the last round, the fight is over. So does the ref have the authority to stop the fight after it has ended?

Seems like a strange concept...even for boxing.

hardcoreBEE24 wrote:

IMO it should have been called when Bute stumbled across the ring and ate a huge hook and got Knocked down.

Well ok. But it wasn't. Had Gatti been awarded the decision in the first Ward fight, would you have disputed it saying they should have stopped the fight in favor of Ward in round nine?

Do you think Castro's win over Jackson isn't legit because the ref should have stopped that fight in favor of Jackson before Castro threw his Hail Mary punch?

Do you think Archie Moore's win over Yvonne Durelle wasn't legit because Jack Sharkey should have stopped it after any of the four times Moore was knocked down?

Can you name me a single other fight in the history of the sport in which a battered fighter came back or held on to win where that win is viewed as illegitimate because the ref did NOT stop the fight in favor of the ultimate loser?