Answers to boxing mysteries.

1. Why did Duran say "No Mas?" Duran's decision was based on ego. My opinion. He wanted to dismiss Ray Leonard's clowing as something that was beneath him. Sure, Roberto was losing the fight, however I don't think he quit because of pain. His star had grown so big that he thought he could portray Leonard as a clown not worth his time.Truth was, he was getting embarrassed. I think if he had 5 minutes to reconsider his decision, he would've continued to fight.

2. Why did Tyson bite Holyfield? Because he was being butted? Well, good for Holyfield at beating Tyson at his own game. Tyson knew he was about to get knocked out. My opinion. Not a fact.

3. Did Liston really throw the 2nd Ali fight? No. Liston got caught with a punch he didn't see. If a lightweight had thrown the punch at another 135 pounder, we have no problem. But Liston was big. The conspiracy buffs don't take into account that Ali was also big. Also, Liston couldn't get up from what was probably just a flash knockdown because Ali was standing over him. The worlds worst referee, Jersey Joe Walcott, didn't know how to escort Ali to a neutral corner. Once Walcott got control of the action, the fight continued. Then the timekepper called Walcott over and told him Liston had been down for more than 10 seconds and should be counted out. This was incorrect. The count should only have begun when Ali was standing in a neutral corner. Walcott incorrectly stops the fight and causes all types of unnecessary trouble. My opinion.

4. What was wrong with Sugar Shane Mosley? Shane was getting beat to the punch. End of story. When you are sure you're going to get hit everytime you throw a punch, you become gun shy. This was the first fight where Shane had a faster opponent. Also, Mayweather is not feather fisted. See how fair I can be when I want to? Figured I'd give Floyd props before the beating from Manny breaks so many hearts. (This is not a Floyd thread. Please take Floyd arguments else where. I complimented him here.)

5. Was the Foreman punch on Michael Moorer a lucky punch? Only if you consider Joe Louis lucky to have beaten Billy Conn. I think these guys are smarter than most give them credit for. Foreman slowly goaded Moorer in by getting closer and closer to him and not offering an obvious threat. When Michael was close enough, George lowered the bomb. Joe Louis played a little game of possom with Billy Conn and gave him the false confidence that he could take him out. Once Conn bought the con, Louis put him in dreamland. Conn could've won the fight but in my opinion he was outsmarted.

Other fights and comments welcome.

Great thread Frank.

Very interesting Frank welcome to the board!

1. I think No Mas happened simply cause Roberto Duran did not want to be in the ring with Ray Leonard one second longer than night. THis wasnt some ploy to make Leonard look weak, Leonard was ready to keep kicking Duran's ass imo.

2. Tyson was a fargile human, he knew he wasnt beating Holyfield, imo, Tyson knew he wasnt a good fighter after Holyfield beat him. If you watch McNeeley, Mathis, and even Bruno fight Tysons timing is off, he never got his timing back when he got out of prison IMO. Same as Duran, Mike wanted a way out.

3. I dont think theres any mystery. Sonny Liston did not give it his all that night. The real mystery is was the 1st fight on the up and up in my opinion. Frankie Carbo being the first man to buy a rematch before the first fight had happened is very odd.

4. Floyd Mayweather Jr is what happened to Mosley, people just cant admit it. Go look at the percentages, nobody touches him.

5. No, because I dont think Louis was lucky vs Conn, Blackburn had said that Louis was tell ing them Im about to get Conn he keeps leaving himself open. Louis was just waiting for the exact moment to lower the boom. Same with FOreman. Master boxers. Nothing lucky about it
great thread

WOW Frank this is the best thread you have written.

Thanks for the complliments. I think I like this place. lol

frank good questions..lets see.tyson came out in the third round threw a lot of power shots and realized its not there..hollifield was calm and tied him up and started to beat him to the punch..mike bit his ear twice realy looking for a way out..2.the no mas fight duran was not losing big time.i had him down by one point..if i remember correctly ray started to showboat winding up his right handand arm in a circular fashion.duran was watching that as ray poped him good on the eye with a strong jab..duran didnt lose heart he lost the fire and rage mentaly and said screw it..he realize ray made a fool of him and that was his way of dealing with it..far from the duran of the past...in the liston fight i agree.the count should not start until ali went to a neutral corner..it was though nat flecther owner of ring mag who yelled to walcott the fights over a ten count was reached..all 3 errored walcott big time the time keeper and fletcher who was responsible for the fight being stoped..he should of read his own articles lol where he talked about the long count in the dempsey fight.jack did go to a corner at first but it wasnt a nuetral corner..that whole fight smelled..the liston one that is.

problem is who the hell is nat fleischer, hes the ring owner

jersey joe screwed that one up

dempsey screwed himself when asking for a nuetral corner rule vs gene tunney

yep walcott screwd up big time..flecher i agree had no authority whatsoever..actualy it was dempseys manager who indeed insisted on the neutral corner rule..that rule was in effect in ny state for about 6 years..illionois just legalized boxing about a year before the fight and i dont believe that was part of the rules there..thats where the split with doc kerns hurt jack..doc would of never mentioned implimenting a neutral corner rule.

ya very true after leaving Doc Dempsey was basically managing himself since his next managers were newbies , I still think Tunney would have gotten up, but Demsey being able to swarm is a big advantage

still pretty nuts they fought 20 rounds and Dempsey only won 1 more than likely

yes jack won in the two fights maybe 2 rounds..im still not sure if gene could of beat the count.he looked alert and at the ref and picked up the count looking at the ref when the count if jack went to a neutral corner about 8 as the refs arm was going down for nine ..soo actualy he picked up the count the offical one about at 5..it would of been close for sure..

agree, still think Tunney doesnt get the credit he deserves, everyone remember Marciano for retiring undefeated

Tunney lost to Harry Greb big friekin deal, then retired undefeated as a heavyweight champion, he is a top tenner that doesnt get mentioned much

tunney in my list ranks in not only the top ten but the top 5..tunney yes lost to harry and by genes account another fight also..that is no shame for greb beat several top HW and LH weight condenders as a middle..gene does not get any credit at all..he was a excellent puncher and that he dont get credit for..master boxer intelligent fantastic footwork without fancy wasted motion..great chin fast hands ..he was never popular after the second dempsey fight and may be part of lack of respect from the general public..true boxing his
torians and experts know different..
marciano indeed also was a great one...i had in 1960 a one on one 2 hour talk with jack dempsey and what a classy guy..he understood the greatness of greb tunney robinson and so many others..
i enjoy talking boxing with fans that display vision and knowledge..i just sit back and smile many times when i read how a floyd was greater then a robinson or would beat him or SRL with ease..or tell me some lumbering HW could destroy tunney..ive talked with many great fighters of the past and trainers and many top syndicated sports writers in boxing one on one threw the years since i was 13 years old.. today my sons enjoy boxing and before they moved away so did there friends..they would watch a fight with me and say this guys better than robinson..not my sons but there friends..i ask why..then i say gee robinson fought some tough tough guys like fritzie zivic and artie levine..they say who....lol case closed..
your right gene is one of the greatest 15 fighters of ALL TIME..not just HW..so was rocky..see people look but cant see..both did so man y things so well but it goes unnoticed.especialy rocky..with tunney has anyone talked about his footplacement.how he intelligently uses that and instantly creates an angle to punch at..anyway is a pleasure today to hear someone say some 84 years after gene won the title that he is not only a great one but merits consideration for the top 10 HW..he sure does

completely agree, and you hit the nai on the head, not only is he underrated, somehow some bullshit theory about Tunney not having any power has surfaced, I have heard alot of people say that, when in fact the guy had a high KO percentage and had enough pop to put Dempsey on his ass.

also, he lost to Harry Greb, one of the best fighters ever, no one really mentions Tunney beat Greb, what was it, 4 out of 5 times?

thats really cool you got to talk with Demsey and alot of the greats, would be fun to shoot the shit with those guys.

Your right Tunney had great foot placement, and also was really one of the first heavyweight champs to stress the importance of physical fitness and working out.

I rank Tunney in my top 10 all time heavies, also i think he would give any light heavyweight a fight. The man was a SMART fighter who could make you pay with that right hand

ahhh gene at LH..gene had maybe a dozen fights at heavy and 60 or more at LH soo gene also ranks in my top 10 in LH.not only would he give them all a fight and wip them gene was better than all but 2 in that division..in fact my first 3 fighters at LH none held that title none.1.ez charles-perhaps the most underated fighter ever2.sam langford ..sam was a LH not a heavy3. tunney..yes i have gene over ez in my top ten in HW but at LH ez was better.4.archie moore5.tommy laughran6.billy conn7. bob foster 8.mike spinks..there are 4 or 5 that merit the rest of the top 10...

not gonna argue wtih that, I too have Gene in top 10 in both

I have Langford in both as well

I still think stylistically Conn vs Spinks would ahve been fun as hell

have ezzard in both as well.

sad thing is just think if people would fight Archie when he was a kid and not n old man

ez charles did exactly that 3 times and beat archie all 3 times..

isnt that scary, shows ya how good he was

yes indeed..amoung his victoms also was charley burley..LH champ joey maxim 3 times rex layne when he was still decent 3 times walcott twice louis danny nardico nick barone and so many others..