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Wolfgangsta
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PostSubject: Why are all these radically different, violently opposed groups so anti-American?   Why are all these radically different, violently opposed groups so anti-American? EmptyFri Mar 23, 2012 5:57 pm

One thing most Americans do not understand when looking at the TV and seeing brown colored people with sand colored backdrops burning flags is that the Middle East is a very diverse land with many different racial groups, religious groups and political entities.

Without meaning to be insulting, one of the things I notice on this forum and any time in general you debate middle eastern politics with anyone in the general population, the people who are the most supportive of our policy in the middle east have the worst understanding of the political, religious and ethnic components at work in both this nation, and the middle east. The recent debate we've had proves that.

A myth perpetuated in the media often by both left and right leaning sources is a link or web between Al-Queda/Taliban, Iran and Iraq. The "Axis of Evil" as it was dubbed. The three governments and ideologies of the three states were utterly mutually exclusive to the point of war between all three.

Everyone knows of the Iran Iraq war that the US funded. Both the Iranians and the Taliban hated Saddam Hussen and regarded his secular Baathist(Arab socialism) regime as unholy and against Islam. The founder of baathism was a christian. Iran is a Shiite country of Persian ethnicity. Their brand of Islam is violently opposed to the type of Islam of the Taliban and Al-queda. Indeed, in 1998 Iran and Taliban Afghanistan were on the bring of war and only UN intervention stopped it. Yet the accusations of Iran funding terrorism and Al-Queda exist and get louder. Iran only funds Hezbollah which has never committed any acts of terrorism or resistance against the USA, and was only created after Israeli troops occupied Lebanon. Hezbollah fighters would shoot Al-Queda fighters on sight if they could. They are violently opposite types of Islam. Yet, all these groups are lumped together. Why? Because they all opposed the United States.

But why is it all these wildly different ideologies all hate us? Is it because we're free? Aren't there a lot of free countries much closer to the Middle East than us? Socially, Europe is worse in terms of gay rights and policy according to Islamic fundamentalists beliefs. So that can't be it. What is it then? Do they hate Jesus? Christianity is the largest religion on the world. There are many Christian nations weaker and closer and none of these countries have their flags burned. Why ours?

I want responses other than bird posting random links to something that doesnt have anything to do with this discussion. What is it about America that draws so much universe malice from very different people from specifically this part of the world. It can't just be an Islam thing, Islam is the second largest religion in the world. Why is it just localized to people Islamic or not in the middle east?
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PostSubject: Re: Why are all these radically different, violently opposed groups so anti-American?   Why are all these radically different, violently opposed groups so anti-American? EmptyFri Mar 23, 2012 5:58 pm

I hate you.

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PostSubject: Re: Why are all these radically different, violently opposed groups so anti-American?   Why are all these radically different, violently opposed groups so anti-American? EmptyFri Mar 23, 2012 5:59 pm


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PostSubject: Re: Why are all these radically different, violently opposed groups so anti-American?   Why are all these radically different, violently opposed groups so anti-American? EmptyFri Mar 23, 2012 6:00 pm

Ya I see that now. Move thread - answer question.
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PostSubject: Re: Why are all these radically different, violently opposed groups so anti-American?   Why are all these radically different, violently opposed groups so anti-American? EmptyFri Mar 23, 2012 8:22 pm

HAHAHAHA WOLF IS FUCKING PROTECTING AND MAKING EXCUSES FOR HEZBOLLAH

HAHAHAHA YOU STUPID FUCK, GO AHEAD KEEP CLAIMING IM A MORON FOR CALLING YOU A ANTI SEMITE, KEEP PROTECTING HEZBOLLAH YOU FUCKING MORON.

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PostSubject: Re: Why are all these radically different, violently opposed groups so anti-American?   Why are all these radically different, violently opposed groups so anti-American? EmptySat Mar 24, 2012 6:17 am

What an intelligent reply. You do not have an answer. You're getting angry at the truths your being shown here. You're digging your heels in. Hezbollah has never attacked the US. This is just fact. I do not like Hezbollah at all. Iran's regime is garbage and I was saddened greatly when the country didn't stage a revolution in 09. But the fact is Hezbollah has never attacked us.


Instead of petty name calling that you'd never do in person, try thinking.

Why do they all hate us?
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PostSubject: Re: Why are all these radically different, violently opposed groups so anti-American?   Why are all these radically different, violently opposed groups so anti-American? EmptySat Mar 24, 2012 4:06 pm

Wolfgangsta wrote:
One thing most Americans do not understand when looking at the TV and seeing brown colored people with sand colored backdrops burning flags is that the Middle East is a very diverse land with many different racial groups, religious groups and political entities.

Without meaning to be insulting, one of the things I notice on this forum and any time in general you debate middle eastern politics with anyone in the general population, the people who are the most supportive of our policy in the middle east have the worst understanding of the political, religious and ethnic components at work in both this nation, and the middle east. The recent debate we've had proves that.

A myth perpetuated in the media often by both left and right leaning sources is a link or web between Al-Queda/Taliban, Iran and Iraq. The "Axis of Evil" as it was dubbed. The three governments and ideologies of the three states were utterly mutually exclusive to the point of war between all three.

Everyone knows of the Iran Iraq war that the US funded. Both the Iranians and the Taliban hated Saddam Hussen and regarded his secular Baathist(Arab socialism) regime as unholy and against Islam. The founder of baathism was a christian. Iran is a Shiite country of Persian ethnicity. Their brand of Islam is violently opposed to the type of Islam of the Taliban and Al-queda. Indeed, in 1998 Iran and Taliban Afghanistan were on the bring of war and only UN intervention stopped it. Yet the accusations of Iran funding terrorism and Al-Queda exist and get louder. Iran only funds Hezbollah which has never committed any acts of terrorism or resistance against the USA, and was only created after Israeli troops occupied Lebanon. Hezbollah fighters would shoot Al-Queda fighters on sight if they could. They are violently opposite types of Islam. Yet, all these groups are lumped together. Why? Because they all opposed the United States.

But why is it all these wildly different ideologies all hate us? Is it because we're free? Aren't there a lot of free countries much closer to the Middle East than us? Socially, Europe is worse in terms of gay rights and policy according to Islamic fundamentalists beliefs. So that can't be it. What is it then? Do they hate Jesus? Christianity is the largest religion on the world. There are many Christian nations weaker and closer and none of these countries have their flags burned. Why ours?

I want responses other than bird posting random links to something that doesnt have anything to do with this discussion. What is it about America that draws so much universe malice from very different people from specifically this part of the world. It can't just be an Islam thing, Islam is the second largest religion in the world. Why is it just localized to people Islamic or not in the middle east?


wow your bold is so full of shit its interesting.

First Hezbollah emerged in 1982 get your facts straight. second.

1982: Israel invades Lebanon to drive out the PLO's terrorist army, which had frequently attacked Israel from its informal "state-within-a-state" in southern Lebanon. Hezbollah, a Shiite group inspired by the teachings and revolution of Iran's Ayatollah Khomeini, is created with the assistance of Iran's Islamic Revolutionary Guards Corps. The group is called Hezbollah–or "party of God"– after initially taking responsibility for attacks under the name "Islamic Jihad." (Not to be confused with the Palestinian terror organization Islamic Jihad.)

July 19, 1982: The president of the American University in Beirut, Davis S. Dodge, is kidnapped. Hezbollah is believed to be behind this and most of the other 30 Westerners kidnapped over the next ten years.

April 18, 1983: Hezbollah attacks the U.S. embassy in Beirut with a car bomb, killing 63 people, 17 of whom were American citizens.

Oct. 23, 1983: The group attacks U.S. Marine barracks with a truck bomb, killing 241 American military personnel stationed in Beirut as part of a peace-keeping force. A separate attack against the French military compound in Beirut kills 58.

Sept. 20, 1984: The group attacks the U.S. embassy annex in Beirut with a car bomb, killing 2 Americans and 22 others.

March 16, 1984: William F. Buckley, a CIA operative working at the U.S. embassy in Beirut, is kidnapped and later murdered.

April 12, 1984: Hezbollah attacks a restaurant near the U.S. Air Force Base in Torrejon, Spain. The bombing kills eighteen U.S. servicemen and injures 83 people.

Dec. 4, 1984: Hezbollah terrorists hijack a Kuwait Airlines plane. Four passengers are murdered, including two Americans.

Feb. 16, 1985: Hezbollah publicizes its manifesto. It notes that the group's struggle will continue until Israel is destroyed and rejects any cease-fire or peace treaty with Israel. The document also attacks the U.S. and France.

June 14, 1985: Hezbollah terrorists hijack TWA flight 847. The hijackers severely beat Passenger Robert Stethem, a U.S. Navy diver, before killing him and dumping his body onto the tarmac at the Beirut airport. Other passengers are held as hostages before being released on June 30.

Dec. 31, 1986: Under the alias Organization of the Oppressed on Earth, Hezbollah announces it had kidnapped and murdered three Lebanese Jews. The organization previously had taken responsibility for killing four other Jews since 1984.

Feb. 17, 1988: The group kidnaps Col. William Higgins, a U.S. Marine serving with a United Nations truce monitoring group in Lebanon, and later murders him.

Oct. 22, 1989: Members of the dissolved Lebanese parliament ratify the Taif Agreement. Although the agreement calls for the "disbanding of all Lebanese and non-Lebanese militias," Hezbollah remains active.

Feb. 16, 1992: Sayyad Hassan Nasrallah takes over Hezbollah after Israel kills the group's leader, Abbas Musawi.

March 17, 1992: With the help of Iranian intelligence, Hezbollah bombs the Israeli embassy in Buenos Aires, killing 29 and injuring over 200.

July 18, 1994: Hezbollah bombs the Jewish community center in Buenos Aires–again with Iranian help–killing 86 and injuring over 200.

Nov. 28, 1995: Hezbollah bombards towns in northern Israel with volleys of Katyusha rockets in one of the group's numerous attacks on Israeli civilians.

March 30, 1996: Hezbollah fires 28 Katyusha rockets into northern Israeli towns. A week later, the group fires 16 rockets, injuring 36 Israelis. Israel responds with a major offensive, known as the "Grapes of Wrath" operation, to stop Hezbollah rocket fire.

Aug. 19, 1997: Hezbollah opens fire on northern Israel with dozens of rockets in one of the group's numerous attacks on Israeli civilians.

October 1997: The United States lists Hezbollah as a terrorist organization.

Dec. 28, 1998: Hezbollah opens fire on northern Israel with dozens of rockets in one of the group's numerous attacks on Israeli civilians.

May 17, 1999: Hezbollah opens fire on northern Israel with dozens of rockets in one of the group's numerous attacks on Israeli civilians.
June 24, 1999: Hezbollah opens fire on northern Israel, killing 2.

May 23, 2000: Israel withdraws all troops from Lebanon after 18 years patrolling the "security zone," a strip of land in the south of the country. The security zone was set up to prevent attacks on northern Israel.

June 2000: United Nations Secretary General Kofi Annan certifies Israel's withdrawal from Lebanon. Shortly thereafter, the U.N. Security Council endorses Annan's report. Hezbollah nonetheless alleges Israel occupies Lebanon, claiming the small Shebba Farms area Israel captured from Syria during the 1967 war as Lebanese territory.

Oct. 7, 2000: Hezbollah attacks an Israel military post and raids Israel, kidnapping three Israeli soldiers. The soldiers are later assumed dead. In mid-October, Hezbollah leader Nasrallah announces the group has also kidnapped an Israeli businessman. In 2004, Israel frees over 400 Arab prisoners in exchange for the business man and the bodies of the three soldiers.

March 1, 2001: The British government adds Hezbollah's "military wing" to its list of outlawed terrorist organizations.

April 9, 2002: Hezbollah launches Katyushas into northern Israeli town. This assault comes amidst almost daily Hezbollah attacks against Israeli troops in Shebba farms.

Dec. 11, 2002: Canada lists Hezbollah as a terrorist organization.

Aug. 10, 2003: Hezbollah shells kills 16-year-old Israeli boy, wound others.

June 5, 2003: Australia lists Hezbollah's "military wing" as a terrorist organization.

Sept. 2, 2004: United Nations Security Council Resolution 1559 calls for "the disbanding and disarmament of all Lebanese and non-Lebanese militias," a reference to Hezbollah.

December 2004: Both the United States and France ban Hezbollah's satellite television network, Al Manar. A U.S. State Department spokesman notes the channel "preaches violence and hatred."

March 10, 2005: The European Parliament overwhelmingly passes a resolution stating: "Parliament considers that clear evidence exists of terrorist activities by Hezbollah. The (EU) Council should take all necessary steps to curtail them." The European Union nonetheless refrains from placing the group on its list of terror organizations.

July 12, 2006: Hezbollah attacks Israel with Katyushas, crosses the border and kidnaps two Israeli soldiers. Three Israeli soldiers are killed in the initial attack. Five more soldiers are killed as Israel launches operation to rescue the soldiers and push Hezbollah from its border. During the ensuing war, Hezbollah launches rockets at civilian targets across northern Israel.

Aug. 11, 2006: The United Nations Security Council unanimously adopts Resolution 1701, which calls for a cessation of hostilities, the deployment of Lebanese and U.N. forces into southern Lebanon, and the disarmament of armed groups in Lebanon.

http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=2&x_outlet=118&x_article=1148

fucking moron

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PostSubject: Re: Why are all these radically different, violently opposed groups so anti-American?   Why are all these radically different, violently opposed groups so anti-American? EmptySat Mar 24, 2012 4:33 pm

Hezbollah was not officially announced until 1985. Bird most of those attacks on non-Israeli targets were never claimed by Hezbollah and there is a lot of debate on who did them. But they're all lumped into Hezbollah in the rush for war with Iran.

They've not ever attacked the United States of America. American soldiers being killed in the middle east or abroad is terrible but when we're involved in fighting over there it is what to be expected..we are fighting after all...

I don't deny they've attacked places and Americans have died. Lots of groups attack Americans all over the world. But they've not attacked the United States. Which is my point. The threshold for war cannot be "suspected" Hezbollah attacks.

All you can do is insult and post disputed lists.

Why didn't the USA list them until 1997 if they did all that dirt in the 80s?
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PostSubject: Re: Why are all these radically different, violently opposed groups so anti-American?   Why are all these radically different, violently opposed groups so anti-American? EmptySat Mar 24, 2012 4:39 pm

first it was they've never killed americans, know never attacked USA, first it was they aren't a terrorist org. now its well they weren't deemed one until 1997.

Wolf changing positions and arguments once again

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PostSubject: Re: Why are all these radically different, violently opposed groups so anti-American?   Why are all these radically different, violently opposed groups so anti-American? EmptySat Mar 24, 2012 4:42 pm

Birdofthad wrote:
first it was they've never killed americans, know never attacked USA, first it was they aren't a terrorist org. now its well they weren't deemed one until 1997.

Wolf changing positions and arguments once again

The US designated them one. Not me. That is very much disputed all over the world what exactly they are. I said they never attacked the United States. If any of my post say they never killed Americans I would not stand by that, but the issue doesn't change.

Why did the USA wait so long to designate them as terrorists though?
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PostSubject: Re: Why are all these radically different, violently opposed groups so anti-American?   Why are all these radically different, violently opposed groups so anti-American? EmptySat Mar 24, 2012 4:45 pm

committed any acts of terrorism or resistance against the USA,

this is where I disagree, you say USA as in main land. We both know that just isn't true, American interests reach far beyond the mainland.

Thats like saying Daniel Pearl wasn't killed by terrorist because he wasn't in america when they cut off his head.

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PostSubject: Re: Why are all these radically different, violently opposed groups so anti-American?   Why are all these radically different, violently opposed groups so anti-American? EmptySat Mar 24, 2012 4:55 pm

I e-mailed the U.N. Secretary-General’s office recently to ask: Does the U.N. consider Hezbollah a terrorist group?
Back from one of Kofi Annan’s spokesmen came the answer: “The designation of ‘terrorist’ would require a definition of what terrorism entails.”


well there is one answer. The U.N. didn't even have a definition of what constitutes a terrorist group at least that was Kofis excuse.

Let us note that in the case of Hezbollah, the group has entailed enough atrocities to have earned it the nickname, “the A-Team of Terrorism,” even before Hezbollah on July 12 launched its killing-kidnapping-and- rocket-firing assault on Israel. Hezbollah’s prior record entails well over two decades of kidnappings, hijackings, suicide bombings, massacres, and collateral carnage worldwide, in countries including Lebanon, Israel, Spain, Denmark, Germany, France, and Argentina.

ALSO IN 1997 HEZBOLLAH LAUNCHED NUMEROUS ROCKET ATTACKS INTO NORTHERN ISRAEL

HMMMMM MAYBE THAT HAS SOMETHING TO DO WITH IT.

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PostSubject: Re: Why are all these radically different, violently opposed groups so anti-American?   Why are all these radically different, violently opposed groups so anti-American? EmptySat Mar 24, 2012 4:58 pm

gotta love wolf , a terrorist group that is referred to as "the A Team of terrorist."

and wolf asks, well are they really terrorist? why are they? what makes them terrorist?

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PostSubject: Re: Why are all these radically different, violently opposed groups so anti-American?   Why are all these radically different, violently opposed groups so anti-American? EmptySat Mar 24, 2012 5:11 pm

Birdofthad wrote:
gotta love wolf , a terrorist group that is referred to as "the A Team of terrorist."

and wolf asks, well are they really terrorist? why are they? what makes them terrorist?

That is a question everyone should ask including you bird.
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PostSubject: Re: Why are all these radically different, violently opposed groups so anti-American?   Why are all these radically different, violently opposed groups so anti-American? EmptySun Mar 25, 2012 1:23 am

You never answered why the US gov waited so long to list them.

anyway. why do they all hate America?
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PostSubject: Re: Why are all these radically different, violently opposed groups so anti-American?   Why are all these radically different, violently opposed groups so anti-American? EmptySun Mar 25, 2012 2:05 am

Wolfgangsta wrote:
Birdofthad wrote:
gotta love wolf , a terrorist group that is referred to as "the A Team of terrorist."

and wolf asks, well are they really terrorist? why are they? what makes them terrorist?

That is a question everyone should ask including you bird.

they have done suicide attacks on places frequented by westerners

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PostSubject: Re: Why are all these radically different, violently opposed groups so anti-American?   Why are all these radically different, violently opposed groups so anti-American? EmptySun Mar 25, 2012 2:07 am

WOLF THE HYPOCRITE

calls Israel war criminals yet is now defending Saddam Husseins invasion of Kuwait

I said north I meant south

you still can't deny the fact that Saddam was invading and trying to expand Iraq.

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PostSubject: Re: Why are all these radically different, violently opposed groups so anti-American?   Why are all these radically different, violently opposed groups so anti-American? EmptySun Mar 25, 2012 4:45 am

Birdofthad wrote:
WOLF THE HYPOCRITE

calls Israel war criminals yet is now defending Saddam Husseins invasion of Kuwait

I said north I meant south

you still can't deny the fact that Saddam was invading and trying to expand Iraq.

Bird find where I said those facts justified the invasion. Try and follow simple logic. I simply pointed out why Iraq always felt that Kuwait was theirs. Look up "Iraq Kuwait claim" on google. I just point out the fact that Britain manufactured Kuwait out of land that was theirs in order to retain oil fields and a port in the gulf. Those details are very relevant in the greater picture of how US/UK involvement causes this violence in the first place. Not that any violence is good, but our actions directly cause it.

Maybe I need to type in shorter, simpler sentences.
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PostSubject: Re: Why are all these radically different, violently opposed groups so anti-American?   Why are all these radically different, violently opposed groups so anti-American? EmptySun Mar 25, 2012 4:46 am

Wolfgangsta wrote:
You never answered why the US gov waited so long to list them.

anyway. why do they all hate America?

Stop ducking the question.
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PostSubject: Re: Why are all these radically different, violently opposed groups so anti-American?   Why are all these radically different, violently opposed groups so anti-American? EmptySun Mar 25, 2012 9:42 am

People hate us for the same reasons alot of people hate the police. We try to police the world for what we deem to be good and other countries dont always agree. Someone has to do the dirty job of trying to keep a world free of terrorists groups, nuclear weapons and just general terror ran by men like Saddam and Osama. I wont pretend to know as much as u guys obviously do on the subject so this is just my opinion. The real question I believe comes down to should the USA just mind there own business sometimes or should we police the world?
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PostSubject: Re: Why are all these radically different, violently opposed groups so anti-American?   Why are all these radically different, violently opposed groups so anti-American? EmptySun Mar 25, 2012 12:15 pm

timthebim wrote:
People hate us for the same reasons alot of people hate the police. We try to police the world for what we deem to be good and other countries dont always agree. Someone has to do the dirty job of trying to keep a world free of terrorists groups, nuclear weapons and just general terror ran by men like Saddam and Osama. I wont pretend to know as much as u guys obviously do on the subject so this is just my opinion. The real question I believe comes down to should the USA just mind there own business sometimes or should we police the world?

me oggy and bird do a lot of gay whiney bickering, but go look at some of these threads. that fact thread I posted. we aren't anything more than heavily crooked cops if we are the world police. the world police would be better than what we are honestly tim.

between 2-3 million Iraqi women and children have died since we gave Saddam the impression he could invade Kuwait in 1990 without us getting involved. They don't call us the great satan because of our evangelical christian values or "freedom" as the media and these criminal leaders of our claim.

I know bird spends half his time trying to defend the government of the USA from me and Oggy's relentless cycle of information assaults but at the same time he also shows a lot of links to the dirty deeds done by our governments.
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Birdofthad
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PostSubject: Re: Why are all these radically different, violently opposed groups so anti-American?   Why are all these radically different, violently opposed groups so anti-American? EmptySun Mar 25, 2012 3:04 pm

you call helping the Kuwaiti people and Saudi people dirty deeds I call it doing a good thing

also you are moronic to claim why do all these islamic militant groups hate us


WE FUNDED THE MUJIHADEEN IN THE 80S OBVIOUSLY AHMAD SHAH MASSOUD, DOSTUM, DAOUD DAOUD, DIDNT HAVE PROBLEMS WITH US.

National Transitional Government in Libya?


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PostSubject: Re: Why are all these radically different, violently opposed groups so anti-American?   Why are all these radically different, violently opposed groups so anti-American? EmptyMon Mar 26, 2012 3:51 am

Birdofthad wrote:
you call helping the Kuwaiti people and Saudi people dirty deeds I call it doing a good thing

also you are moronic to claim why do all these islamic militant groups hate us


WE FUNDED THE MUJIHADEEN IN THE 80S OBVIOUSLY AHMAD SHAH MASSOUD, DOSTUM, DAOUD DAOUD, DIDNT HAVE PROBLEMS WITH US.

National Transitional Government in Libya?


That was because he was an Afghan national fighting a foreign army all up in his land. After the USSR leaves he deals more WITH Russia and local allies than he does with us, hence why we left him out to dry/possibly killed him.

Bird, I will not acknowledge any replies that do not address the questions you continue to duck. I don't think you have answers to them. Do not reply unless you can answer why we support the brutal saudi regime which beheads people in the street, or how the invasion in 91 of Iraq was a good thing to help people when 100,000 civilians died vs only 1,000 Kuwaiti civilians during the war, and the following sanctions lead to the starvation of between .5-1.2 million children alone.

Such liberators! God bless America.
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PostSubject: Re: Why are all these radically different, violently opposed groups so anti-American?   Why are all these radically different, violently opposed groups so anti-American? EmptyMon Mar 26, 2012 3:51 pm

wolf you still dodge the obvious.

Iraq invaded Kuwait.

Yes?

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PostSubject: Re: Why are all these radically different, violently opposed groups so anti-American?   Why are all these radically different, violently opposed groups so anti-American? EmptyMon Mar 26, 2012 3:54 pm

wolf

Massoud, aligned with the Najibullah regime, the Taliban rose in 1996 and Massoud was the lead resistance fighter against them from the beginning.

Keep shitting on a hero if you want to and try to blame our government for his assassination


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